Features

Download

Online

Gallery

Blog

  Index  | Recent Threads  | List Attachments  | Help  | Search
 Welcome Guest  |  Register  |  Login
Login Name  Password
 

Sweet Home 3D Forum



No member browsing this thread
Thread Status: Active
Total posts in this thread: 45
Posts: 45   Pages: 5   [ Previous Page | 1 2 3 4 5 | Next Page ]
[ Jump to Last Post ]
Post new Thread
Author
Previous Thread This topic has been viewed 29645 times and has 44 replies Next Thread
Ceciliabr
Advanced Member
Member's Avatar

Denmark
Joined: Jul 7, 2013
Post Count: 205
Status: Offline
Reply to this Post  Reply with Quote 
Re: A major challenge?

@okh
The rendering of this lamp is pretty demanding on the cpu


I think the the lamp itself is to blame for the long rendering time.
As an experiment, I constructed a very simple lamp.
With 14 fireglow light-sources inside, it rendered quite fast.
It might take a bit longer on a slower computer, but the lamp itself is only 700kb.



Simple lamp

Here's an example showing how I have lighted it:
Wall-lamp-example.sh3d

In order for the lamp to light up the surrounding area "through" the lamp-shade, it will, I think, need (large, soft) light-sources outside the perimeter of the lamp itself.



Yes. But that's how we have to light a 3D room anyway if we want a "decent exposure".
The lamps are really just props.

Also, the light-source should have a tint in the same colour as the lamp-shade.


Yes and no.
The light that is emitted through the shade could be coloured by it,
but in my opinion the light that comes out at the top and the bottom, should not be tinted.
A tint can be applied by using outside light-sources. This image has two 25 X 25 cm red light-sources at 12% strength, placed right in front of each shade.






I am under the impression that Puybaret does not want to over-complicate the general SH3D interface…

That's quite understandable. Just imagine all the support-questions he would have to answer.
I think the question is whether Puybaret really wants to expand into something more than home decorating.
And then, of course, there's the fact that the Sunflow renderer is long since discontinued. Switching to another rendering engine will at some point become necessary.
but it would be nice to know more about the initial question too.


It appears Mr. Puybaret is working on it. That's promising smile

In the meantime; enjoy the Indian summer in Norway.


cec
[Sep 21, 2016 1:18:52 PM] Show Printable Version of Post    View Member Profile    Send Private Message    http://cecprojects.wordpress.com [Link] Report threatening or abusive post: please login first  Go to top 
MartinSK
Advanced Member



Slovakia
Joined: Jul 1, 2016
Post Count: 318
Status: Offline
Reply to this Post  Reply with Quote 
Re: A major challenge?

Thanx @Cecilia for this lamp model... It's great.
Martin
[Sep 22, 2016 6:19:05 AM] Show Printable Version of Post    View Member Profile    Send Private Message [Link] Report threatening or abusive post: please login first  Go to top 
okh
Advanced Member




Joined: May 12, 2013
Post Count: 1287
Status: Offline
Reply to this Post  Reply with Quote 
Re: A major challenge?

..lamp itself is only 700kb.
Yes, smaller size (if not small smile) helps. But the light-sources still take their toll on a slow computer. Actually the .png appears to constitute most of the size. I had a quick look and if I understand correctly the .png uses a palette with partly transparent colours(?) as there seemed to be no transparency in the .mtl file. The effect is very nice even if the bulb will remain slightly too visible in rendering (at least until other decorative/ambience light-sources are added to the plan). And this is the essence of my problem - getting the .mtl transparency to balance with the .png to create a good "frosted" look like a real lamp-shade.

And I agree with MartinSK, it is a very nice lamp that deserves to be part of the collection (preferably with pre-fitted light-sources). And clearly, as you have demonstrated, using your techniques it is certainly possible to create the beautiful images.

..top and the bottom, should not be tinted.
No, of course not. It is clearly no problem to use various colours in the different light-sources in the model. But the trouble is that the colours will stay fixed even if I change the hue of the texture.

The lamps are really just props.
Ah yes, this is certainly true if you want to create beautiful renderings. One will need to cheat. However, from my perspective when I do real life redecoration, I move lamps and light-source continuously and my purpose is only to do very quick tiny renderings to get a general impression of how the lamps can work in the room. In other words, my aim is not picture perfect lamps and perfect renderings - it is to produce a quick and good impression of light in the room, straight out of the box, so to speak.

But I have a couple of ideas that I might try if work and other minor annoyances did not keep interfering...

ok
[Sep 22, 2016 8:24:25 AM] Show Printable Version of Post    View Member Profile    Send Private Message    Hidden to Guest [Link] Report threatening or abusive post: please login first  Go to top 
Ceciliabr
Advanced Member
Member's Avatar

Denmark
Joined: Jul 7, 2013
Post Count: 205
Status: Offline
Reply to this Post  Reply with Quote 
Re: A major challenge?

@okh
the .png uses a palette with partly transparent colours(?) as there seemed to be no transparency in the .mtl file.

Yes. And the reason for that, is to enable the user to determine the amount of transparency he wants. With a predefined transparency in the model itself, the user can not choose to have an opaque lampshade.

My own preferences on how I would want a lamp to work, is to be given the possibility to change parameters for every element. By making the bulb a separate, editable element, any colour or texture can be applied to it, making it easier to achieve the desired result. Darkening the bulb, and tinting it with the colour of the lampshade, will produce a softer glow. Giving the bulb a semi-transparent texture, might even soften it more. I will experiment further when time allows.


if you want to create beautiful renderings. One will need to cheat

Yes, of course we need to cheat!
... or?

Since we are hanging in the bar, why not get philosophical (or quasi-philosophical) for a moment :

I think we can agree on the fact that a 3D-model must be rendered as a photographic image in order to be revealed, and to create a photographic image, we must use a camera.
Using a real camera photographing an interior or an exterior in the real world, we will try to create a photographic image that gives us the best visualisation of our object.
Now, in the real world, using a real camera, we can change the exposure by adjusting aperture size and shutter speed. But even that is not enough to emulate the perfect image we get by just looking at an object with our own eyes. A camera does not have anywhere near the capacity to handle the vast dynamic light-range offered by our brain.
So, in order to reduce the dynamic range, so we can capture our image photographically, we must use extra lighting to compensate and enhance our photographic image – and especially when trying to emulate the way our eyes are perceiving interiors.
A camera can just record light – it cannot predict, and it does not have any dynamic selectivity to offer us, like our eyes have when we are scanning the world around us. We are constantly adjusting the aperture, dependent upon the light conditions of the object we are watching.

Rendering photographic images in SH3D, we can't even adjust aperture or shutter speed, so how can we expect a rendered image to be anywhere close to resemble the image we get from looking at a real model in the real world?
Every photograph in brochures and property prospects are artificially lighted – as well as being enhanced during the post-production procedure.
Every photographer is cheating.

But then, what is really cheating? After all we are using 3D modelling software to visualise an idea. If you look at it from a philosophical viewpoint, the idea of cheating cannot be applied to only one single part or event in the 3D-modelling process. Either everything you can do within SH3D is cheating, or nothing is. The lamp is not real, the light sources are artificial – and we are viewing our created image using a computer that has been mathematically calculating every shadow we see on the screen.

The way I see it, cheating is the only way to create an illusion – and you can quote me on that. wink


cec
[Sep 22, 2016 1:43:25 PM] Show Printable Version of Post    View Member Profile    Send Private Message    http://cecprojects.wordpress.com [Link] Report threatening or abusive post: please login first  Go to top 
Ceciliabr
Advanced Member
Member's Avatar

Denmark
Joined: Jul 7, 2013
Post Count: 205
Status: Offline
Reply to this Post  Reply with Quote 
Re: A major challenge?

@ MartinSK

Thank you! I will center the bulb correctly and update the model shortly.


cec
[Sep 22, 2016 2:13:02 PM] Show Printable Version of Post    View Member Profile    Send Private Message    http://cecprojects.wordpress.com [Link] Report threatening or abusive post: please login first  Go to top 
okh
Advanced Member




Joined: May 12, 2013
Post Count: 1287
Status: Offline
Reply to this Post  Reply with Quote 
Re: A major challenge?

..cheating is the only way to create an illusion...
Quoted... Might use it again. Agree with (almost) all of what you say as a good summing up. Could go on about perceived reality or perceived truth, but then I would end up with courtroom stories about witnesses - or Ibsen's livsløgn. As long as we acknowledge that we only glimpse reality, it is not too bad staying in the illusion. How is that for quasi...bar talk? ok
[Sep 23, 2016 10:25:13 AM] Show Printable Version of Post    View Member Profile    Send Private Message    Hidden to Guest [Link] Report threatening or abusive post: please login first  Go to top 
Ceciliabr
Advanced Member
Member's Avatar

Denmark
Joined: Jul 7, 2013
Post Count: 205
Status: Offline
Reply to this Post  Reply with Quote 
Re: A major challenge?

@okh

As long as we acknowledge that we only glimpse reality, it is not too bad staying in the illusion.


No, it's not too bad... we don't really mind living the illusion. Tick - tock, the time is running, in a world of created linearity, where man, an insignificant and perishable parenthesis in the universe, is letting his short existence be governed by mechanical devises. Sure, it's all a game, and we know it, but yet; we have given ourselves no other options than to play along - we can't escape the illusion – so we call it democracy, and keep on playing. And the rich get richer, and the poor get nothing. After all, it's just a matter of choosing the right parents when you're born.
We have chosen to live on top of the world. Lucky for us.

Come gather 'round people
Wherever you roam
And admit that the waters
around you have grown
And accept it that soon
you'll be drenched to the bone.
If your time to you
is worth savin,
then you better start swimmin'
or you'll sink like a stone,
for the times they are a-changin'.


How is that for quasi...bar talk?

Perfect! smile

This is far from perfect, but I think it's the best I can do:


And it really doesn't take long to render:


This time rendered on an iMAC quad-core i5.

Here is the project file ( not zipped):
Lampetter-6.sh3d

And here is the model (only 231 kb, – and that IS small.. or?):
Lampette-01.3ds

The model is based on a photograph of my grandmothers lampette.

Have a nice weekend. smile



cec
[Sep 23, 2016 11:19:32 PM] Show Printable Version of Post    View Member Profile    Send Private Message    http://cecprojects.wordpress.com [Link] Report threatening or abusive post: please login first  Go to top 
okh
Advanced Member




Joined: May 12, 2013
Post Count: 1287
Status: Offline
Reply to this Post  Reply with Quote 
Re: A major challenge?

@cec

Well, your rendering is pretty close to perfect in my view. But I could not help myself and try the same with very simplified models/textures to speed it up. A similar room,
- with a replica of Cec' lamp shrunk to 14 KB including texture (but much rougher, of course),
- simpler chair and table, also a fraction of the size,
- same with other textures / models,
- swapped the wine/glass with drinking beer from a can (seemed more appropriate given the lack of finesse).

Beauty and the beast if you like. Now, clearly Cec' version is far better in all sorts of ways. But, there is something to be said for the rough approach too - the total plan is less than 10% the size of the pretty one. Which means it is faster and easier to work with on a slower machine. The plan is (for me) sufficient to see what I want to do in real life.

As for adding light-sources in the lamp model properties, that still annoys me. Could not get that right, but a few lessons learnt:

  • getting an effect close to Cec is possible, but not without cheating' using extra light-sources inside and outside the model,
  • placing small lights around the bulb in the model properties is better, but very hard to get right. This is as far as I got:
    width#67=12.5
    depth#67=15
    height#67=19
    movable#67=true
    lightSourceX#67=4.5 8 6.2
    lightSourceY#67=12 12 9
    lightSourceZ#67=7 7 7
    lightSourceColor#67=#0D0500 #0D0500 #0A0400
    lightSourceDiameter#67=0.5 0.5 0.5

  • even if light colour is tuned almost to black, the light gets way too bright in the model(probably doing something wrong here)
  • several (three) light-sources are better than one, but also increases the total output of model light.
  • I did not check rendering times, the computer I am using now, is too slow for many takes. Still, the simplified model was rendered without too much delay.
While difficult to get right, using several light sources in the model, is probably the right way to go. Should I ever get it right, I will let you know... smile ok
Put the models and a demo in SF 3d models 400 in case someone wants to improve or tell me a better way.
Plan with demo: lampette.sh3d
Lamp model (.obj, without light sources): lampette.zip


[Sep 24, 2016 2:35:11 PM] Show Printable Version of Post    View Member Profile    Send Private Message    Hidden to Guest [Link] Report threatening or abusive post: please login first  Go to top 
Miker777
Advanced Member



UK
Joined: May 8, 2016
Post Count: 428
Status: Offline
Reply to this Post  Reply with Quote 
Re: A major challenge?

Hi okh
lmao @ swapped the wine/glass with drinking beer from a can (seemed more appropriate given the lack of finesse).
[Sep 24, 2016 4:31:25 PM] Show Printable Version of Post    View Member Profile    Send Private Message    Hidden to Guest [Link] Report threatening or abusive post: please login first  Go to top 
okh
Advanced Member




Joined: May 12, 2013
Post Count: 1287
Status: Offline
Reply to this Post  Reply with Quote 
Re: A major challenge?

..swapped the wine/glass with drinking beer from a can...
Yes well, seems we have run out of wine anyway. Remind me to lock that cupboard next time teenagers stay home alone.

Funny what happens during week-end shopping. The stupid mistake in above example dawned on me over a display of avocados: The Y-axis values are calculated from the wrong side of the model, so the light-sources are placed outside the lamp-shade, hence the wrong reflection. Also, the lampshade needs a different material on the inside.

Fixing the co-ordinates, and setting the inside of the lampshade to a material transparency to an .mtl value of d 0.5, the result suddenly became much closer to what I wanted.

Yes, I know, certainly nowhere near perfect, but the lamp model is now getting closer to usable. The remaining issues should be fixable.

Thanks a lot to cec for steering me in the right direction. Time for some Saturday cooking and a ... well, can ... of something. Updated/corrected SF page .

New plan (model has built in light): lampettefix.sh3d
New model (obj. without light-sourcs): small_lamp_3.zip


[Sep 24, 2016 5:35:24 PM] Show Printable Version of Post    View Member Profile    Send Private Message    Hidden to Guest [Link] Report threatening or abusive post: please login first  Go to top 
Posts: 45   Pages: 5   [ Previous Page | 1 2 3 4 5 | Next Page ]
[ Jump to Last Post ]
Show Printable Version of Thread  Post new Thread

    Get Sweet Home 3D at SourceForge.net. Fast, secure and Free Open Source software downloads
   
© Copyright 2006-2017 eTeks - All rights reserved