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Ceciliabr
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Re: Tin Can Alley

being a silly man with a dash of vanity, how could I possibly resist a challenge? Goal, shrink with little or no loss in quality.
I have downloaded your comparison project, and again I’m BAFFLED & FLABBERGAST seeing what you have achieved.

There is one thing that needs to be mentioned before I go on:
I have received an e-mail from a another user at the forum (he didn’t want to post his question in public), asking why I needed to “show-off” every time I visualise my arguments with an illustration. "Why else would you bother to make so much out of it, if not to show off your skills?" was what he wanted to know.
Well, it's a timely question, and I don’t deny that wanting to parade creations that I’m proud of is part of the equation,
But showing off like that also serves it's purpose in other ways, one of them being to show what the somewhat underestimated Sunflow Renderer is capable of, and another being to show what a splendid software SH3D really is.
But none of these arguments defeats the main reason:
How can we judge an objects reflection without giving it something to reflect? And the same goes for refraction: If we don’t provide a source that can create an illusion of waveform transmission, we won’t have anything to judge the effect by!
This is the main reason why I bother to create environments and place my objects inside them. But, of course, I enjoy being in a creative state.

Well...

Example:
What does THIS tell us:


Compared to THIS:


Even on a small image like this, we can clearly see the varying effect of the distorted waveform-transmission seen through the two bottles on the right. My HiRes glasses, however, that have been given the correct optical density for glass, in my opinion renders a far more accurate refraction.
Let me just mention that the barrels are low-poly-creations downloaded from Trimble. They serve only as "decorative" elements.

Here is a shot from the reverse angle, so you can see it's a closed room.


And here is a shot through a HiRes glass:


So much for "show-off".
Time to get down to the dirty business of exposing the hidden hazards of tampering with the contents of a perfectly tempered bottle of Tignanello.


Seems my theories on size and rendering times were not too far off
Not at all. They were spot on.
There's a surprisingly tiny difference, a difference really not worth mentioning, unless you are watching close-ups on a screen with 4K resolution (or higher), and at the same time partaking in a nerdy discussion about the pros and cons of object-shrinking, polygon-reduction, removal of normals and heavy compression.
But part from me, I don’t think you’ll find any other geeky graphic-wonks at this forum, and certainly not anyone working on two 43” Phillips 4K monitors.
My arguments here are naturally coloured by the line of work I do.
My last job was retouching a 320" billboard poster (1.88GB), so I’m well trained in detecting almost unnoticeable faults. I have to be, because when the customer is standing next to the finished print – an 8 by 3 meter poster, where every tiny detail becomes visible – he or she had better not find any reason to point a finger at something that can justify any reason to start a negotiation about price-reduction. ;)

The elephant in the file is the .png label, an optimizer shrinks it to 11% without quality loss

Not entirely true.
Not without quality loss.
But you could say; “with little and barely noticeable quality loss.”, and still have kept your words intact.

So where is this loss of quality, you might ask?

Look closely at the labels. You don't see it?
Then look at this image [url=http://ceciliabr.com/Glass/Tigna-comp-project-label.png[/url]
Now you can see that there is a quite visible inconsistency in the black level. Lots of grey spots can be seen – if you look for them.

That said: The label is one of the things I'm not very comfortable with.

I have noticed that you have lifted the contents of the bottle a bit.
As I mentioned when I made this model available for download, that was part of the work that remains. Another important par ( to me) is to make a correct cap, with the right colour and the correct Antinori insignia.

About the refraction:
If you look closely at the base of the models, you will notice the differing quality of the refraction.

If I was to print a high quality image of this bottle, I would rather increase than reduce the resolution of the .obj-file


Just so that there is no room for misunderstanding:
My arguments are mostly for the sake of arguing, and hold no importance to the majority of the users visiting this thread. There's absolutely no need to use a 10MB .obj-file where a reduced 340kb file will do just as well.

Ho-hum.
Consider this:
If you were to drink a bottle of Tignanello 2012, would you be happy to be served a reduced and watered down version?

Cheers!

Cecilia





cec
[Feb 8, 2018, 4:48:02 PM] Show Printable Version of Post    View Member Profile    Send Private Message [Link] Report threatening or abusive post: please login first  Go to top 
Ceciliabr
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Re: Tin Can Alley

TY cec, nice compliment coming from you.

Maybe I'm nicer than you think wink

Thanks for the file!

Cec
[Feb 8, 2018, 4:51:05 PM] Show Printable Version of Post    View Member Profile    Send Private Message [Link] Report threatening or abusive post: please login first  Go to top 
okh
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Re: Tin Can Alley

.."show-off" every time I visualise my arguments...
I find that to be a strange comment. I do not see these or any of your renderings as show-off. The images and text are highly relevant to why this thread started: the effects of reducing model size and rely on s 1 smoothing. High quality images with background and light sources reveal issues that I would not discover in my 900×600 renders. So thanks, for me this is very useful. And, btw, even if the posts were show-off, that would still be fine. Of course, users wish to show stuff they are proud of and get a pat on the back as acknowledgement. Forum would not be the same without them.
..tiny difference, a difference really not worth mentioning ... 8 by 3 meter poster, where every tiny detail becomes visible...
But it is worth mentioning. Again, it all depends on the purpose. No cheating: for high quality print other formats and higher resolutions are essential. Just got some A5 signs back from a print shop based on a vector original. Result was perfect, as it should be, even if I doubt anyone else would have noticed. So I agree, no short-cuts when it comes to the real stuff.

But that also means I should explain my preference for low-quality graphics in the models: It is unlikely I will ever use the original texture again. The working texture is just a place-holder for texture mapping. As the original model is saved in the .sh3d file, there is no point in including high-res graphics I will not need. Later, when I next need a bottle, I will apply a new texture in SH3D. At whatever resolution I require. Much tidier. So for each model, I tend to save a texture template for easy editing later (along with the original model file, but I do not put these in the zipped model file). Such as the AnyLabel in the first post. can_label_txt.svg
An .svg file that is easy to change into anything I like, at any resolution I need.

Like these two models with different textures and colours: Can to the left only has the holding texture, the three to the right have altered textures. Bottle same thing, original with small label to the left, changed colours and label to the right.


Actually, all the textures in this example are rubbish, mock-ups made in a couple of minutes, but that is not the point, it is possible to replace them with decent ones.

The elephant in the file is the .png label, an optimizer shrinks it to 11% without quality loss
Not entirely true. ... But you could say; "with little and barely noticeable quality loss.", and still have kept your words intact.
This is a bit mystifying as it looked as if the optimizer did file compression (not image compression) for the 11% version. But I may be wrong, I did not check carefully. For the 1,4% version content and format was changed, but I did not spend time on the image as such, it was just to show reduction possible.
If I was to print a high quality image of this bottle, I would rather increase than reduce the resolution of the .obj-file
Obviously you wish to use the resolution necessary to get the result you wish. And in some cases, I suppose that will require a higher resolution model. But I also think there is a point where it is impossible to tell the difference, i.e. where the s 1 smoothing produces a result identical to a high number of edges. At least seen from the side.
If you were to drink a bottle of Tignanello 2012, would you be happy to be served a reduced and watered down version?
No. Absolutely not. Having had teen-agers in the house, watering down brings shivers down my spine. I gladly forgive nicking a taste or two, but trying to conceal theft with water is another story... Then again, I gladly drink a cheap, simple wine if it serves my purpose and pleases me. At a recent dinner party, expensive wine was served, everyone else seemed to love it. Tasted horrible, the back-up bag-in-box was infinitely better with the spicy food served. But that was me. Purpose and personal taste.

ok

PS
@bdfd: nice compliment coming from you
Looked at your bottle. .obj pretty effective and just plastering the entire model with an image is an interesting approach. But I am not sure how you would go about testing the optical density at close-up using a full texture?
[Feb 9, 2018, 5:13:10 PM] Show Printable Version of Post    View Member Profile    Send Private Message [Link] Report threatening or abusive post: please login first  Go to top 
bdfd
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Re: Tin Can Alley

just for cec.

Another point of view of the saloon, it was a good exercice.



Sorry cec, I haven't found danish beer. wink
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[Feb 17, 2018, 5:48:56 PM] Show Printable Version of Post    View Member Profile    Send Private Message [Link] Report threatening or abusive post: please login first  Go to top 
Ceciliabr
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Re: Tin Can Alley

Nice!

smile
[Mar 2, 2018, 3:50:54 PM] Show Printable Version of Post    View Member Profile    Send Private Message [Link] Report threatening or abusive post: please login first  Go to top 
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